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Topic: Simple problem?

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Re: Simple problem?

My simplistic way of seeing the "problem" is that the answer is five. Why dos he say that we will not believe it? Unless you do the right hand side of the equation fist, then the answer becomes 230-110=120.

But most people in the western world read from left to right.

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Re: Simple problem?

Unless you do the right hand side of the equation first, then the answer becomes 230-110=120.

Which is correct = 5!, as Mr Cheetham says. Jack will explain. Perhaps Mr C should end his sentences with a full stop.

Re: Simple problem?

Albert Ross wrote:

My simplistic way of seeing the "problem" is that the answer is five. Why dos he say that we will not believe it? Unless you do the right hand side of the equation fist, then the answer becomes 230-110=120.

But most people in the western world read from left to right.

It seems that you’ve forgotten your lesson about factorials, Albert!!

"Has it ever struck you that life is all memory, except for the one present moment that goes by you so quick you hardly catch it going?"
― Tennessee Williams

Re: Simple problem?

So 5!=1x2x3x4x5=120?

Harking back to my schooldays, you always do the multiplication or division sum first BEFORE attempting the addition or subtraction unless brackets are used, in which case the bit inside the bracket is calculated first, am I right? All of which would mean the answer is 5! or 120.

Why did I get mixed up in all of this?

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Re: Simple problem?

You've got it, Albert. Quite a clever little equation, isn't it?

Re: Simple problem?

I've only just noticed this thread - I think my machine was non compos mentis when it was posted.

I got quite indignant at first, until I noticed the twist. Very clever, bringing the mathematically knowledgeable down a peg.

Interesting philosophical point here, mixing maths and text!

Re: Simple problem?

So it is generalized by

(p - q) x 0.5 = n

and

p - (q x 0.5) = n!

Then given n, what are the values of p and q?

William

Re: Simple problem?

(p - q) x 0.5 = y

This is not called up by the original expression, and is a misreading of the convention. Effectively, you have introduced it as a red herring. Of course, the rhs in the given expression would become:
(230-220)/2 = 5.
This solution is a non-starter, except for an eccentric.

The accepted general convention is as the second:

p - (q x 0.5) = y

,
so the rhs becomes:
230 - (220/2) = 230-110 = 120, which is 5!

p.s. As this is a "nice" forum, it might be y's to mind our p's and q's!

Re: Simple problem?

It seemed to me, and still does, that the idea is that the left-hand side of the equation evaluated properly gives an answer of 5 factorial and that evaluated in the other way, which is usually regarded as incorrect but I think is how it would be evaluated in the MUMPS (also known as M) database language, is 5.

So if one generalizes that so that evaluated the right way gives an answer that is factorial of the answer evaluated the wrong way, one gets two simultaneous equations.

For answers of 5 factorial and 5 the values of p and q are 230 and 220 respectively.

Solving the two simultaneous equations so as to provide results for p and for q for a given value of n, gives the following.

p=2(n! - n)

q= 2(n! - 2n)

So, if n=1, p=0 and q=-2,

so the equation is

0 - (-2 x 0.5) = 1!

(0 - -2) x 0.5 = 1

If n=2, then p = 0 and q=-4

0 - (-4 x 0.5) = 2!

(0 - -4) x 0.5 = 2

If n=3, then p=6 and q = 0

6 - (0 x 0.5) = 3!

(6 - 0) x 0.5 = 3

If n=7, then p = 10066 and q = 10052

10066 - (10052 x 0.5) = 7!

(10066 - 10052) x 0.5 -= 7

William

Re: Simple problem?

William wrote:

...... evaluated in the other way, which is usually regarded as incorrect but I think is how it would be evaluated in the MUMPS (also known as M) database language, is 5

This is quite irrelevant.

The clear intention of the original designer of the problem (I assume not the OP in this forum) was for readers who obeyed the standard process ("*/" then "+-") to evaluate the LHS, and be initially shocked by the statement that it was equal to a clearly incorrect number, not noticing the  "meta" addition of the factorial indicator. That is why I referred to the problem as being somewhat of a philosophical problem, a hybrid of text and maths.

I would like to introduce an analogy.
The adept mathematician understands how f', f'' etc. are used to represent dy/dx, d2y/d2x (you know what I mean- I don't know how to show superscript in this forum). This is an accepted shorthand, and no one would adapt or modify it. It has a meaning, which is universally understood.

I think, in the same way, the standard notation implies a process which is universally understood, where that notation is used. So if I write an expression using that notation, that is what I intend. If I meant to evaluate a "+-" function before a "*/" function, I would parse the expression in accordance.

The expansion of the expression in its correct and incorrect  formats may be interesting; a quick glance at the working shows interesting relationships - but it is an ephemera, a castle built on clay. It has nothing to do with the clever joke implied by the original maths expression in its text matrix.

Re: Simple problem?

William, let's look at your maths in your last post.

We agree that, using normal nomenclature:
P-Q/2=n!. . . .(1)
P/2 -Q/2 = n. . . (2)
From which:
P=2(n!-n) . . .. (3) and
Q=2(n!-2n). . . (4)

You have tabulated several values of P and Q derived using those equations..

You have gone on to show that in each example, the end result is what you expected.

Let's look at it another way.
P-Q/2 = 2(n!-n) -2(n!-2n)/2 = 2n!-2n-n!+2n = n!
and
P/2-Q/2 = 2(n!-n)/2 -2(n!-2n)/2 = n!-n -n! +2n = n

Great result, except that is where you started from. You have merely proved your arithmetic has been faultless, so the results are not interesting!

If n = an integer value of x, and if there are no exceptions to the process, the two results for (1) and (2) are always x! and x, respectively.

E&OE

Re: Simple problem?

BTW, another relationship, given
(P-Q)/2 =  n, and
P-Q/2 = n!
is:
n!/n = (n-1)! =
(P-Q/2)/(P/2-Q/2)
= (2P-Q)/(P-Q) = P/(P-Q)+(P-Q)/(P-Q)
=P/(P-Q) +1
So if n were 5, (5-1)! = 4! = 24,
and given the original expression, P=230, Q=220, and P/(P-Q) = 230/(230-220) =23, and adding the  +1, = 24
QED

Re: Simple problem?

Come on William. You introduced the topic, and I have spent some time on it, as you can see.
Have you no comments?

15 (edited by jackneve 2022-10-19 12:49:28)

Re: Simple problem?

If you are interested in the order of processes in an arithmetic "chain", try this 14 minute video. At least stick with the first half.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVRJLD0HJcE

At the end of the video, there is a most surprising conclusion. Worth a knowing chuckle!

Re: Simple problem?

Thank you for your posts.

William