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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

As a professional artist I assume that the term modality refers to "the usual way of doing things" it doesn't refer to who is doing the usual things. If it's just the person feeding words into an AI it is not them, the AI program is the "doer".
Speaking as a "doer of the usual" I have the following observations upon the results I have seen of AI so-called art.
The best one could say of them is that they are photographically accurate assemblages of plagiarised portions of good painting assembled in a novel way. They all, without exception lack the following:
Good, imaginative graphic composition, altogether mostly lost nowadays due to the overwhelming preponderance of commercial illustration on the web.
The results are more representational of computer games or supernatural imagination common in comic style fiction.
True special and original professional compositional arrangement of shape and colour that has not been copied from many sources, often commercial.
The genuine style which is the mark of a time-served craftsman.
Any painter who has mastered his craft can detect the absence of any human feeling in most of these AI productions.
It is possible that if in the future a programmer with a proper craft education is able to include the human element into the AI program it may succeed in fooling an art practitioner of the old school.
What would militate against that is the completely wonderful feeling of actually experiencing the creative process with all its blind alleys and the actual thrill of the often long, often arduous and protracted process involved in the arriving at the final work of art. Other painters only fully appreciate and understand my paintings from seeing the preparative sketches I do towards it. Where are its equivalents with AI works?
Once I finish a painting, I tend to lose interest in it. The only further satisfaction I can obtain from it is to appreciate the journey it took and the enjoyment and possible impetus that other people might get from it.
That's all I have to say.
John

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

The ways to get the required outcomes becoming achieved, not necessarily the "usual" ways.

As far as I am aware, the images are not plagiarised, I asked about intellectual property rights and I was informed that the AI is trained on licensed training databases. I was also informed that the paintings are originals as the AI learns the styles of various artists then paints original paintings in that learned style. So "after" as they put it. I am not sure whether they would be called pastiches.

I am not a professional artist, and I value your input.

Please consider the picture in the following post.

https://punster.me/serif/viewtopic.php?pid=3876#p3876

I wrote the prompt.

I am not a professional artist, and I have no training in art appreciation.

Now I like that picture.

Would you like to say what you think of that picture please, I note that you included the word "most" in your comments, so I wonder what you think of that particular picture. No need to diplomatically take into account that I like the picture, I am interested to learn.

As I say I am not a professional artist yet I know what you mean about the wonderful feeling of seeing one's art displayed.

William

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Johnk wrote:

Any painter who has mastered his craft can detect the absence of any human feeling in most of these AI productions.

I am not a painter at all, let alone one who has mastered his craft, but I haven’t come across any AI ‘art’ that suggests the presence of human feeling.

“Within you, there is a stillness and a sanctuary to which you can retreat at any time and be yourself.”
― Hermann Hesse
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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Alfred wrote:
Johnk wrote:

Any painter who has mastered his craft can detect the absence of any human feeling in most of these AI productions.

I am not a painter at all, let alone one who has mastered his craft, but I haven’t come across any AI ‘art’ that suggests the presence of human feeling.

What about this one?

https://punster.me/serif/viewtopic.php?pid=3890#p3890

William

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Thank you for replying and appreciating my input.
Yes I can understand that you may very well like a picture. However you cannot possibly expect a computer program to be able to conceive or compose using human judgement processes or human imagination choices, it can only select and assemble according to its programming instructions.
I don't really feel that one would be entitled to claim any product as the product of one's art no matter how meticulous the choice of verbal input. Perhaps you are referring to art you have produced in a more traditional way.

John

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Johnk wrote:

Perhaps you are referring to art you have produced in a more traditional way.

John

I was referring to when in 1977 I called in to the National Physical Laboratory and asked if they had a Viewdata set and if so could they display page 786 for me please, explaining why I wanted to see it, and I was taken to a building and in the foyer was a Viewdata set and page 786 was displayed and there was my Colour Check design glowing from the screen.

1977 there was an article in Wireless World, a monthly magazine back then, and I wrote to the author, the inventor of Viewdata, Mr Fedida, with an original design for a colour graphic design that I called Colour Check, the design set out on squared paper in black for the letters e and red letters to stand for the control characters and a key beneath explaining format that I had used.

Mr Fedida replied to me and said the graphic had been added into the Viewdata system on page 786.

The design is reconstructed as best I remember it in the following thread.

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index. … teresting/

I now have a print of that image, framed in an A4 frame.

I do not know whether in some archive somewhere the original Viewdata page is conserved.

William

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

William wrote:
Alfred wrote:
Johnk wrote:

Any painter who has mastered his craft can detect the absence of any human feeling in most of these AI productions.

I am not a painter at all, let alone one who has mastered his craft, but I haven’t come across any AI ‘art’ that suggests the presence of human feeling.

What about this one?

https://punster.me/serif/viewtopic.php?pid=3890#p3890

William

I’m afraid that that one doesn’t do anything for me, either.

“Within you, there is a stillness and a sanctuary to which you can retreat at any time and be yourself.”
― Hermann Hesse
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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

I'm very much afraid that commercially speaking the AI method will mean a definite loss of income for many artists. There is no doubt that AI works quite well for purely illustrative purposes, many will lose their livelihood as a result. I'm inclined to equate the assurances about picture property rights from businesses with those that used to come from tobacco firms in the mid-1900s.
It also seems clear, more's the pity, that visual artists will not be able to enjoy the protection that music artists and musicians can expect from Spotify and other music streaming services to protect their interests.
John

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Johnk wrote:

I'm very much afraid that commercially speaking the AI method will mean a definite loss of income for many artists. There is no doubt that AI works quite well for purely illustrative purposes, many will lose their livelihood as a result. I'm inclined to equate the assurances about picture property rights from businesses with those that used to come from tobacco firms in the mid-1900s.
It also seems clear, more's the pity, that visual artists will not be able to enjoy the protection that music artists and musicians can expect from Spotify and other music streaming services to protect their interests.
John

Quite right. AI image creation is rapidly being adopted.  It's faster and cheaper than humans and I agree many will lose their livelihood as AI keeps improving.  Bing Chat uses Dalle E3 to make images.  I asked Bing Chat how Dalle E3 works and especially could Dalle E3 provide a list of sources for the images it creates.   I got this answer. 

DALL-E 3 is an AI model that can create images based on natural language inputs, such as “teddy bears shopping for groceries in the style of Ukiyo-e”. It uses a large neural network that has been trained on a huge amount of text and images from the internet, so it can understand the meaning and context of the words and phrases that you provide, and generate images that match your description.

However, DALL-E 3 does not provide a list of sources for the images it creates, because it does not copy or reproduce any existing images. Instead, it synthesizes new images from scratch, based on its learned knowledge and creativity. Therefore, the images that DALL-E 3 creates are original and unique, and do not belong to any specific source or author.

Of course, this also means that DALL-E 3 might be influenced by the data that it has seen during its training, and might generate images that resemble or reference some existing works or styles. For example, DALL-E 3 can generate images in the style of a living artist, such as Picasso, but it will not generate an exact replica of any of Picasso’s paintings. In such cases, DALL-E 3 is designed to decline requests that ask for an image in the style of a living artist, to respect their intellectual property rights and artistic expression.

35 Reply by William (edited by William 2024-01-17 19:44:44)

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

pberk wrote:

For example, DALL-E 3 can generate images in the style of a living artist, such as Picasso, but it will not generate an exact replica of any of Picasso’s paintings. In such cases, DALL-E 3 is designed to decline requests that ask for an image in the style of a living artist, to respect their intellectual property rights and artistic expression.

Are you referring to an artist other than Pablo Picasso (1881- 1973)?

[Later note: I had not realized that that was part of what Paul was quoting as having been output by the AI system]

William

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

William wrote:
pberk wrote:

For example, DALL-E 3 can generate images in the style of a living artist, such as Picasso, but it will not generate an exact replica of any of Picasso’s paintings. In such cases, DALL-E 3 is designed to decline requests that ask for an image in the style of a living artist, to respect their intellectual property rights and artistic expression.

Are you referring to an artist other than Pablo Picasso (1881- 1973)?

William

It is odd. Picasso is not a living artist but Bing Chat seems to refer to him as such. You understand, this was the response from Bing Chat about how Dalle E3 works.  Remember the disclaimer that all AI has about being wrong. But in this case, I would think Bing Chat is referring too THE famous artist Pablo Picasso.

37 Reply by GB

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

JohnK

I completely agree with all you have said about AI. Many posts ago I commented that there is nothing from AI that is truly original. None of the "poems" or "artwork" produced by it and reported on these forums has produced a reaction in me similar to that produced by a good novel or work produced by a human artist.

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

pberk wrote:

You understand, this was the response from Bing Chat about how Dalle E3 works.  Remember the disclaimer that all AI has about being wrong. But in this case, I would think Bing Chat is referring too THE famous artist Pablo Picasso.

Oh my mistake, I had not realized that you were stating what the AI had stated.

I will edit my earlier post to show my mistake.

William

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

GB wrote:

JohnK

I completely agree with all you have said about AI. Many posts ago I commented that there is nothing from AI that is truly original. None of the "poems" or "artwork" produced by it and reported on these forums has produced a reaction in me similar to that produced by a good novel or work produced by a human artist.

I consider that the sonnet in the Italian style where the AI brought the name Lucy into the sonnet was good.

https://punster.me/serif/viewtopic.php?pid=3682#p3682

William

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Johnk wrote:

Perhaps you are referring to art you have produced in a more traditional way.

John

John, don't say if you would rather not, but when you wrote "As a professional artist, ..." what do you do please?

For example, do you paint pictures in watercolours and sell them for hundreds of pounds, or do you paint a picture then it is photographed and high quality prints on industrial printing presses are produced and you sign one hundred and they sell for more than unsigned ones, and/or do your pictures have scaled down reproductions printed at high quality and sold as 7 inch by 5 inch greetings cards, or what?

I wonder whether you consider the following art and whether the happiness I got, and continue to get, are the wonderful feeling to which you refer.

On 24 October 2022 I made two A3 size PDF documents.

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index. … galleries/

In 2023 I uploaded them to the webspace of Viking Virtual Print House and ordered five copies of each printed in colour on 350 gsm paper (which is like thin card) along with other prints from other activity so as to be as cost effective as possible.

So when the prints arrived and I opened the pack I felt great as I saw the big stylish A3 prints. Is that the wonderful feeling to which you refer?

I have got one of each stuck with double sided tape on the panels of an internal door.

Now, there is no freehand drawing in there. There is no paint, blue and black are from the software and the laser printer at the print house. There are no brush strokes. The symbols are my designs and are added from a font that I made using High-Logic FontCreator software, using numerical values to locate points.

The idea to produce those signs are mine. I saw a picture of a text sign in the Musuem of Modern Art in New York (MoMA) in six languages and it inspired me to produce the language-independent sign that could become localized to a specific language in a mobile phone that has appropriate software.

So do you regard that sign as art?

William

41 Reply by Johnk (edited by Johnk 2024-01-17 22:46:28)

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

I can see that producing those PDFs are the result of a great deal of preparation and I would readily agree that the whole thing gave you pleasue in the doing of it and finally a sense of having achieved something worth while. I can also see that other people appreciating what you have done gives you an additional sense of achievement.
I have sold watercolours, for a couple of hundreds in my time but after a career teaching art to A level in Essex schools I spent many years of my early retirement in tutoring Art Holidays in Italy and also demonstrating, tutoring and lecturing to Art clubs and societies in East Anglia and the Home Counties. You may see a lot about me on my website www.millrind.co.uk and my more recent paintings at:
https://www.painters-online.co.uk/my-art/
John

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Thank you.

William

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

There is in robotics the concept of "uncanny valley".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I wonder if that is the same sort of thing that some people are saying about art generated by an AI system.

I wonder if there is some effect that someone more expert in art notices uncanniness features that other people do not.

So, a sort of "almost but not quite" noticeability in the AI generated art that people with expertise in art notice yet other people do not.

I have been looking at John's paintings. I wonder what Bing Chat AI would be capable of producing if it could be trained on John's paintings and were allowed to produce pictures other than square ones and with many more pixels and then they were printed by a business that produces high quality art prints. Perhaps there could be a range of high quality greetings cards, some of John's watercolours and some of an AI's watercolours after being trained on John's watercolours. Yet is this like someone teaching a class about someone else's ideas, not his or her own ideas? Though that teaching can have great value.

That test could possibly be achieved with a little adjustment to the AI software if John gave permission, yet it would need some extra "stuff" of some sort for the AI to even attempt an original picture using watercolour paint on paper made for original watercolour paintings to be painted upon.

I don't know how an artist would feel about an AI system being trained on his or her work, does the artist refute the idea or does the artist write an email to Microsoft or whoever offering that? If attention was drawn to an artist's work as a result, would that be a good result? "You've seen the AI "follower of" art, now please look at the work of the actual artist?

William

44 Reply by William (edited by William 2024-01-19 12:00:51)

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

A question about AI in the Serif Affinity forum.

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index. … suggestion

Can we persuade Bing Chat AI to do that?

William

45 Reply by William (edited by William 2024-01-19 12:33:14)

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Please produce a painting of a lady who has long hair and she has her hair flowing down loosely in front of her.

This got a painting but hair in front on one side only.

Please see the first two images.

----

Please produce a painting of a lady who has long hair and she has her hair flowing down loosely in front of her on both sides of her body.

This got some pictures more like drawings, but thus far no picture with her hair down the front on both sides of her body.

William

https://i.postimg.cc/V0nyktG4/570d3a59-6d7e-45a4-a523-f72b4c063b64.jpg



https://i.postimg.cc/grHyhJCT/a2a00413-79db-4c34-955d-739d1b7a8696.jpg

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Please produce a painting in the style of Claude Monet of a lady who has long hair and she has her hair flowing down loosely in front of her on both sides of her body.

This gave three beautiful pictures, presenting some, though not all, of what was requested.

William


https://i.postimg.cc/SXTtzYd6/dc3c0dbe-f183-429c-806f-f8f2f4bcb704.jpg



https://i.postimg.cc/DmJy0q6c/ab171f8f-883b-491d-bb87-d8cb2d5c8774.jpg



https://i.postimg.cc/zbLj4trM/9acfa597-60b9-4afc-ab1f-80b127ded59c.jpg

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Please produce a painting in the style of Claude Monet of a lady who is looking out of the computer screen and who has long hair and she has her hair flowing down loosely in front of her on both sides of her body.

Oh!

William



https://i.postimg.cc/zLj177zh/8966d33c-f8da-4fab-9b23-2903aac39b59.jpg

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

It struck me that “who has long hair and she has her hair flowing down loosely in front of her” might be difficult to parse accurately, so I simplified the description to this:

A painting of a lady who has long hair flowing down loosely in front of her.

https://i.postimg.cc/K4460P8X/3-A5-A4-C81-E339-42-A7-AC7-D-B50-B6767-D177.png


Not quite what I wanted! So I amended the description for a better result (but I forgot to specify ‘in front of her’):

A painting of a lady facing forward with long hair flowing down loosely on both sides of her body.

https://i.postimg.cc/RWmbxK4Z/467-F747-B-E2-FB-4-E89-87-F0-1-A0-AE321097-E.png


As previously, I used Gencraft for these images.

“Within you, there is a stillness and a sanctuary to which you can retreat at any time and be yourself.”
― Hermann Hesse
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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

I prompted Bing Chat AI as follows.

Please produce a painting of a lady facing forward with long hair flowing loosely down both sides of her body in front of her.

Three pictures were produced, two were not correct.

Yet one was correct.

William



https://i.postimg.cc/V0c6hJ5V/7d2b2ba0-dd90-4b9c-a606-ecdd64cf5aa2.jpg

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Re: The modalities of using Bing Chat AI to produce art

Please produce an impressionist painting of a lady facing forward with long hair flowing loosely down both sides of her body in front of her.



https://i.postimg.cc/GTBTy497/f0780c7e-4621-4d6e-8861-cdb4e175f28a.jpg